Imps, Zombiemen, and Shotgunners

[Captain Ventris]

Okay. Something that I've toyed with FOREVER has been the balance between Doom's most basic units. Pinky Demons have their place as cavalry and melee support, and Lost Souls are meatshields and aerial harassment units.

But the Zombieman, Shotgun guy, and Imp have always been... weird. Plenty of people like to Zombieman horde for the early game. I've also seen Zombiemen thrown down as a quick defense against ghosts. They seem to get pretty even usage, even later in the game. Their attack power is negligible, but they can fill in a gap in a pinch. As a cheap, fast-spawn unit, I'm relatively happy with them.

I see some like to pump out Shotgunners for a game start to get some base firepower, particularly if paired against an opponent early on. I see sparse usage mid game, and rare usage late game. They have decent firepower, but is it really enough to make up for the slight price increase? Especially since they can't hit ghosts, which could be a big reason behind their lack of usage. But if they are made to hit Ghosts, Zombiemen will disappear from our battlefields.

Ah, Imps. They have both melee and range, but dangit, they just haven't been useful for a long time, if ever. But if I make them hit Ghosts, they'll probably be TOO useful. Whatever happens with them, they still need to equal the worth of Shotgunners in some capacity, being the same price and all. I just feel that a 2/3/4 basic unit price ramp wouldn't work too well here, since the Imp is obviously meant for different things.

So, I want to discuss what can be done to make each unit have its place, and be worth it there (as much as a basic unit can be).

[Dancso]

I haven't had much battles with those units especially not recently.

I believe that shotgunners can be used as player killers if used correctly... you know, like I'd spawn traductus near a player who's alone in enemy/nobody's territory, and have good chances of dealing some damage. Now, shotgunners have always been such a pain in the original doom game, if you let them shoot you from close up, you got hurt badly.. I'm not sure about their damage output but I'd sort of like to see their behaviour stay similar... as a cheap ass player killer.

I'm not sure how much health imps have, but they might be a bit more useful if they were harder to take down. Then again, I haven't fought them in a while, but as I imagine it they usually drop like flies, no? Even if they're cheap... those two units would most probably end up overpowered if they were to hit ghosts.

[Thetis]

What about reducing the pain chances of both the shotgunguy and the imp. Increasing the melee range of the imp isnt all that bad either. You can also increase the imp fireball speed.

[evilspacetomato]

Melee range increase for imps would be good, I like shotgun guys for cheap suppression/player killing.

[Minus-]

Yeah, I spam zombie men on ghosts, usually works, I use shotgunners throughout the entire match, good, cheap and easily spammable close range firepower. Imps, I put on small towers that cant carry arachnotrons or mancubi etc.

[Captain Ventris]

Alright doodz, less "this is what I do with X/You should do X" and more of WHY the changes you support should be made. Y'all are gonna help me a lot more if you actually JUSTIFY these things.

[Vilde[Fin]]

My opinion is that if acolytes can hit ghosts, why not sergeants too? I don't think it will be to much of a problem since there's always something that can be done to give zombiemen some kind of boost to make them uselful... If sergeants could hit ghosts, I really don't think imps need to be able to hit ghosts anymore.. Cacodemons and sergeants/humans could handle ghosts just fine.

[Minus-]

Imo sergeants need a CHANCE to hit ghosts, not full time, would not make them too awesome at ghosts, just enough

[Captain Ventris]

Aug 13, 2010 15:55:03 GMT Vilde[Fin] said:

My opinion is that if acolytes can hit ghosts, why not sergeants too? I don't think it will be to much of a problem since there's always something that can be done to give zombiemen some kind of boost to make them uselful... If sergeants could hit ghosts, I really don't think imps need to be able to hit ghosts anymore.. Cacodemons and sergeants/humans could handle ghosts just fine.

...so Imps are useless, and you have no solution for zombiemen? That... doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

And Omni: Shotgun Guys being inefficient against Ghosts doesn't make them any more desirable, since Zombiemen spawn faster.

[Vilde[Fin]]

Aug 13, 2010 20:21:09 GMT Captain Ventris said:

...so Imps are useless, and you have no solution for zombiemen? That... doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

Just... Well, improvise.. ;D

Make them walk faster? Fire faster? there are many possible solutions... I also didn't really mention imps in my previous post since I myself feel they are already good enough as they are..

[Minus-]

yeah, i think imps are fine as they are, if you really want to, go ahead and change them, but whatever

[$-$lyfox-$]

Then try increasing zombieman's rate of fire, then make shotgun guys hit ghosts, while increasing the length of imp's melee, and increasing the projectile's speed.

[Captain Ventris]

For Zombiemen to equal Shotgunner's usefulness, if the Shotgunner could hit ghosts, I would have to make them fire at least 3 times as often, which would make them worth more than the 2 mana they should, and do cost.

[Vilde[Fin]]

Well they are pistol zombies after all, and pistols should be pretty fast to fire (aren't they?). Maybe you can increase their firing speed and at the same time just.. Decrease their accuracy (they're zombies!! They can't be very good at shooting xD) or damage (Maybe they could have the worst pistols ever = less damage)?

[$-$lyfox-$]

Aug 14, 2010 10:07:12 GMT Vilde[Fin] said:

Well they are pistol zombies after all, and pistols should be pretty fast to fire (aren't they?). Maybe you can increase their firing speed and at the same time just.. Decrease their accuracy (they're zombies!! They can't be very good at shooting xD) or damage (Maybe they could have the worst pistols ever = less damage)?

your mixing technicality in real life terms with a game about magical creatures, monsters from hell, and even mishapen virus bots.