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Post by Minus- on Aug 14, 2010 21:18:48 GMT
and plus, they have rifles, despite being really shit ones
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Post by pizzaguy on Aug 15, 2010 8:25:24 GMT
Imps are great if you put them up mid-high/high. They can rain down on people and even though they aren't as powerful as say a Mancubus or Revanant they are still pretty useful for chipping away at enemies from afar, especially bosses.
I use shotgun guys early on to chip away at enemies that spawn near me and later on I'll do the same thing if enemies get too close, although I usually use chaingunners by that point.
Zombiemen aren't bad for early on pelting of enemies but their use runs out pretty quick. Still, I won't ever use them late game, I use shotgun guys and chaingunners. For filling gaps I'll use imps/shotgun guys.
Zombiemen have their place but there are definitely direct upgrades to them and they shouldn't be used after early game.
Having said that I have no suggested changes for any of them as I feel they all fulfill their roles quite nicely. If Imps hit ghosts it would be nice but again it has never really been an issue for me as (mainly) Doom player.
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Post by evilspacetomato on Aug 15, 2010 9:39:57 GMT
One good use for Zombiemen later on is to reduce attention ghost from your rail revs
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Post by streetsweeper66 on Aug 17, 2010 17:59:10 GMT
Alright let's try to contribute to the solution of the problems regarding the aforementioned units.
Zombiemen:
Except for their ghost hitting ability and as a "tech tree opener" they are useless. Why?
When not fighting ghosts the Sergeants (Shotgunners) do the job much better although they cost 50% more per figure. They are in the end enhanced Zombiemen that can not hit ghosts. Since the Shotgunners drop 1 mana per figure they tend to be only slightly more expensive than Zombiemen.
When used against ghosts the Zombiemen still perform extraordinarily poor due to their low damage output, sluggishness and low hit points.
With their cost of 2 mana in mind I would suggest to make them better at fighting ghost units which is the only edge over the Shotgunners. For example with a damage bonus against ghost units.
Shotgunners:
They are the Doom factions best non-hero mana ranged unit in my opinion, because their shots are hitscan attacks and you get a high firepower per mana. Also the only other non hero ranged units are the inferior Zombiemen and Imps who often miss their target due to their slowly flying projectile attacks. I consider Lost Souls as melee units and they are also really weak when engaged in melee because their hit points, damage output and attack frequency are low. Lacking non hero mana alternatives I use Shtogunners often also in the late game and I obeserved many other Doom faction players do the same in the many Zdwars matches I played.
Compared to other factions' non hero mana ranged low cost units like Rebel, Acolyte, Afrit, Gargoyle Leader, Mummy, Nitro Mummy, Prism, Spore, Armored Bipedal Flemoid etc. they are among the weakest. Maybe that was intended to make the Doom player spawn quality creatures instead like Mancubi and rely less on hordes of cheap creatures?
Still i think the power level gap between Shotgunners and most of the similar monsters is too big and thus they should be slightly stronger, but not by giving them the ability to hit ghosts which would render Zombiemen completely useless.
What to improve about the Shotgunners?
Since they are sluggish Zombie Shotgunners making them like Strife's accurate, high rate of fire, high range(?) Rebels or Acolytes seems unfitting. Some qualities I affiliate to zombies would be toughness, relentlessness, strength, sluggishness, inaccuracy and no feeling of pain.
Carried over to Zdwars that could mean +20 Hp, no pain state or reduced likelihood of entering it and adding a melee attack.
Imps:
Like Zombiemen they are useless. As melee units they are inferior in every respect to Demons. Their lower cost does not compensate for this. Their ranged damage and likeliness to hit are worse than the Shotgunners'.
They are versatile, but weak at melee and even weaker at ranged combat .
A mix of Shotgunners and Demons is versatile too, but more efficient.
Since they are more melee than ranged units I compared them to other factions' non hero mana low cost melee units and discovered that they totally lack hit points. Increasing their hit points would not solve the problem of their unclear role though.
With a small hit point increase they would still be useless. Giving them too much of a boost would make the Demons less useful.
Giving Imps the ability to hit ghosts at range would leave no role for the Zombiemen.
Conclusion:
With Shotgunner and Demon the roles of low cost brawler and ranger are already adequately manned.
Zombiemen cover the role of low cost ranged anti ghost fighter rather poorly. Maybe they could be specialized further as anti ghost units and handicapped in other areas as balance.
I'm not sure what to about the Imps.
I will sketch a few possible ideas for them.
1. Make them cost much more than Zombiemen and let them fulfill the same anti ghost role. There is a huge cost gap between Zombiemen at 2/0 and the next higher anti ghost unit in the Doom faction which is the Cacodemon at 12/2.
Proposal for Imp:
Ghost hitting ability Homing projectiles High Range of Fire and Sight Cost 7/0 Hitpoints 140 Damage Melee / Ranged Low / Low
Disadvantage: Cost of 7 seems too expensive for what the Imps would be able to do (look at Nitro Mummy). Zombiemen would still be useless. Reducing cost would make Zombiemen even more useless. Increasing attributes to fit to the cost of 7 would make Demons and maybe Spectres useless.
2. Make Imps ghost units themselves with an emphasis on ranged combat? Sounds bad for the Shotgunners...
3. Increase Imps' melee quality? No way! Demons and to a lesser extent Spectres would only be used to unlock Hell Knights.
4. Try to improve the Imp's role as allrounder for melee and range?
5. Let Imps be anti ghost and remove the ghost hit ability from Zombiemen giving them a different speciality?
Ideas for the Zombieman then?
How about a Zombieman that was not totally mutilated ( red flesh) can stand up again fully healed up to X (= 3 to 8?) times until it really stays dead? X should not be too large of course.
The Imp could stay at 3 mana then, would be able to hit ghosts at range throwing its projectiles a bit more often than now and they should fly faster.
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Post by Minus- on Aug 17, 2010 20:47:59 GMT
yeah i like that zombiemen persistence idea, they are, after all, zombies lol
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Post by leehiufung911 on Sept 6, 2010 10:15:35 GMT
suggestion extremely expensive upgrade (i.e. 170/140) to make sgguys and imps hit ghosts, plus a 20 hp health boost.
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Ethril
Meatshield
dood
Posts: 34
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Post by Ethril on Sept 6, 2010 11:44:27 GMT
suggestion extremely expensive upgrade (i.e. 170/140) to make sgguys and imps hit ghosts, plus a 20 hp health boost. No. Stop making stupid suggestions. Find an actual strategy that doesn't consist of "Spam basic units", or at the very least figure out a composition of them that works. Fat chance of that, though; You're basically playing a game of chess using only Pawns. A single enemy Queen (Or Rook. Hell, even the King) would be able to outdo you.
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Post by leehiufung911 on Sept 6, 2010 14:27:12 GMT
heh "spamming" basic units. define basic. quoting merriam-webster basic: of, relating to, or forming the base or essence: fundamental you NEED huge hordes or these, to support better units! the form the base, they are the motherboard of your army. now there's probably good reason for the egyptians to decide B****ing pyramids bottom-wide. if you have been camping for 1000+ years in some dark corner, fine, get 50 revs. but at least for me, who is usually not as fortunate, i am pressed to searched for a unit that provides cheap firepower, and is balanced. AND is CHEAP enough. putting ghost enemies out of the drawing board i would say that unit is the shotgun guy. but shotties get raped by ghosts. zombiemen can hit ghosts, but they deal so little damage that it doesnt even matter. doom's suppresion units are not cheap, they cannot be used as a base force, and not all hit ghosts. therefore i was about to suggest imps hitting ghosts (flak! ), since their ranged attacks are weak yet not that weak, and their melee is inferior to that of demons, and if they were to hit ghosts there would (finally) be something that they are useful at. but since ventris (sorta) said no, i didnt post it. instead a superupgrade is the only thing i can think of ATM that doesnt clash with the functions of preexisting units, and that doesnt render some units "tech tree openers". please elaborate to your criticism.
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Post by Minus- on Sept 6, 2010 20:13:16 GMT
well, remembering the mummy is like the equal to the imp, and mummies can hit ghosts, why not aye? they cost 1 mana difference, but i think the homing more than makes up for that
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