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Post by Damage on Aug 12, 2010 19:53:47 GMT
Zdoom WarsMAP DISCUSSIONNow I'm sure everyone in here has played Zdoom Wars enough to know how it is played and what maps work better than others. If you haven't then I don't know what you're doing here, in this forum, go play Zdoom Wars. Now I know that most of the classes are fairly balanced between each other so there isn't too much to say about what class works better with what map, although for some maps I'm sure Strife may be more suitable than, say, Chex. We won't lie and ignore each classes strength or weakness, but we do know maps cater specifically to certain play styles every class brings to the table. We all should be able to freely discuss and analyze the map balance by now as seasoned veterans, which is what this thread is going to shed light on. Now let's familarize ourselves with each specific map. Mobius took the liberty of screen-shooting every Zdoom Wars map with additional information along side them. Map Pack 1 Name: Weird Bases Created by: Xutawoo  Name: Despair Canyon Created by: Remmirath  Name: Da Void Created by: Anna  Name: Caverns Created by: Mik57  Name: Doomcity Created by: Mik57  Name: Doomcity OutSkirts Created by: Mik57  Name: Valley Created by: Mik57  Name: Tech Monolith Created by: Mik57  Name: Blazing Colosseum Created by: Reaku  Name: Lesser Crucible Created by: Leonan  Name: Battlefield '94 Created by: Xutawoo  Name: Barren Created by: Mik57  Name: Turmoil Created by: Unholypimpin  Name: Command and Conquer Created by: Omegamax, Doom-Ita, and Corpsegr1nder  Name: Dead Haze Created by: The Crate  Name: Greater Crucible Created by: Leonan  Name: The Flame Temple Created by: Guigui  Name: Red Canyon Created by: Whodaman  Name: The City of Chaos Created by: Unholypimpin  Name: Pacific Warfare Created by: Mik57  Name: Grimwald Created by: Sauerkraut  Name: System Reboot Created by: Damage  Name: Continuum of Discord Created by:Xaser  Name: Something Epic Created by:Omegamax DISCLAIMER: Map screenshots subject to change as they are redone, keep in mind that what is said here could affect what changes are made to a future map. Rules and things to consider: This is a very serious thread. I will not talorate tom-foolery or one lining of any kind. This is not a bash thread no matter how you feel about something. This is for players to freely speak about which maps, and why, are the most balanced and overall good gems. I will not expect nor condone ambiguity of ANY KIND in this thread. You see a map you have qualms against? Elaborate on what aspects of the map that is displeasing to the game overall. I will remove any post that justifies itself as, "I just don't like it," or, "It's shit." I want you to sell these points to someone that is uninformed -- educate me.
As much as I welcome free discussion, it boils absolutely to experience and know-how. This doesn't exclude newer players or the inexperience from voicing what possibly can be evidence.
The final goal of this discussion is to help Mik and I, as the designated mappers, know what needs to be done with the current maps besides just small detail additions and gameplay changes, but what maps need overhauls, and why some maps are played more in general than others. It may also help creators of future levels know what to do and what not to do when making their maps, so that they play great straight from the get-go. Your opinions on what makes a good "base map" and "brawl map" are also welcome. Through this thread we will hopefully be able to perfect the weaker maps and raise the overall quality of the map packs and future map packs.
I will accept arguments as long as PEOPLE KEEP IT CIVIL! DO NOT EVEN ENTICE any player no matter what it is they say. Someone flamed you or said something that is either trolling or baiting? Don't even reply, report it to me immediately and I will remove it (assuming it is breaking the rules). I will not accept flaming, trolling, or one-liners in this thread. For those of you making a first reply to this thread, it should go something along this format. You don't have to elaborate on every single map though, even an opinion on just one map can make a difference: GVH01: The random layout of the maps is what makes this map fun, but that's about it. It's all flatland so no Jitter/sjas/creeper kicking your ass over the terrain. It probably is the most balanced map, even if it is dull.
OR:
I agree with Cut about GVH01 and 02, especially 01. That is probably the most balanced map of the entire GVH series. It has plenty of cover with both ghouls and humans, but also certain areas that are either claustrophobic or open enough to utilize. There is also enough places for the Sjas to hide and make a comeback on an entire human team if the cards are dealt right. You can freely discuss what another person has stated too, just remember that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I realize that this is quite a long post to read, and some of it is common knowledge, but at least skim the entire post so that you don't end up getting called out on your response, or make a useless contribution. Yes, for those of you that have Cutstuff accounts, I did use the GvH Meta Map discussion thread as a template, and used the same rules, mainly because in general these are the rules and formats for these types of threads, so don't bother pointing this out, it doesn't matter. and as for the cited excerpts, what better examples to use than actual replies for these types of threads?
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Post by mobius on Aug 20, 2010 14:06:48 GMT
Well since I take part in the festivities of Zdoomwars, I guess it is only fitting I elaborate on the strategies each map represents in a general prospective and from a selective class (Heretic for now). One important facet of fighting in this game isn't the necessity of producing quantities of powerful units, but capturing land-markers vital to mounting any sort of offense or defense.
ZDW01's land-markers are within the very four corners of the map itself. There are four structures that have an opening facing outward where projectile units can apply pressure on enemy players as they have no other choice but to advance inward to be effective. This map focuses mainly on your ability to penetrate within the very narrow entrance of an enemy base and wreak havoc.
The catch to ZDW01 is that as you advance further, you might have to either evade swarms of enemy projectiles or close quarter units to spawn your own to surround the player. Capturing at least 2 bases is paramount to obtaining any strong grounds to repulse any advancement from adversaries from the middle, which is practically sucide from either a bombardment of your own range attacks or the fireballs shooting upwards every four minutes.
As Damage can attest to, I make it my business to stealthy go behind enemy lines here and pester the enemy player into submission. I would abstain from wasting too much mana on close quarter units here because of how well placed ranged units are placed and the lava trap in the middle; which is detrimental considering you need those CQ units to corner the enemy.
In Short: This map is about the player's ability to move in tight spaces moreso than summoning monsters.
ZDW02 is another player challenge in the skill of hiding. You wouldn't believe it but considering that 2 land marks have primary height advantage, and one is hidden from the two that can control middle ground, a player reckless to try an absolute direct confrontation will be severely punished.
In one particular location, there is a tunnel located within one of these bases that can actually house an enemy player long enough to mount a sneak attack or stall enough time to survive and leave. The second base across from it doesn't have that large a facility to maintain, but this can literally be harmful in prolong fights where strategic locations you wish to place units on is extremely limited (you only have about 4 or so high ground pillars to use). The only extreme way to mount any effective offensive is having a beast-like defensive where ranged units are placed in effective high grounds. The map size is long enough to allow these units to make great work of anything across from it, and the high ground only help conceal their location well enough that enemy players will walk to their doom if they try a direct approach. The quickest to mount such a defense can be the first to make the best offensive here.
I never played on ZDW03. I have nothing to add.
Oh Christ it is ZDW04. The amount of hillish high ground to enemy bases plus wide open areas once you breach the entrance from the middle can be both good and bad for any player. You have the luxury of having so much arm room to B**** in your own homes, but this amount of room can also provide a sneaky enemy player evasive space to avoid getting slammed.
The high top towers were once very effective before the entrances were narrowed, so place anything there that isn't hitscan is, to me, a waste of mana. To be honest, I would waste my time looking for the opponent in their base than attempting a coup to take his base from him. Too many high ground where projectiles can easily stomped advancing forces from the structure at the middle, which is a death trap itself to capture in prolong games.
ZDW05 is a plethora of landmarks but the big fish is at the far end where you have height over most all B****ings. This location is ideal but not tactical unless you're Hexan, Strife, or Virus. I say this because it is just a large hallway with two elevators at either end, which doesn't really offer much ground to cover to hit enemy units. In order to even make that place effective, you would need enough time to capture other roof tops to support it, which will be hard to do from the distance and height that place is located. I rather focus more on the roof tops throughout the map before motioning to mount anything at the top.. by then, my units will be in full blown war so to me, it is only an effective retreat rather than a defensive alternative.
ZDW06: This is probably one of the easiest and hardest map for turtling players. The heliport seems to be a hot bed for conflict as it has the highest land mark throughout the map next to the mountain across from it. The difference is that the helipad offers lots of leg room with only one entrance to get access it. You can set different projectile units on 3 different heights without worrying about them wandering off and mixing into your close quarter units, which is practically flawless on paper.
The forest seems to be the less desirable place to be for obvious reasons such as visibility and flat terrain, but the base on the inside is another sought after location; however, it isn't as comfortable as the helipad considering how vast it is and offers too much cover to conceal enemy players. Strife players seem to do exceptionally well here and the forest area for their hitscan and Crusader land marks. I have never seen virus players do well here, but correct me if I am wrong. The B****ings surrounding the parameter of the helipad is easier to capture once you possess the high ground, making the heliport the most sought after location strategically.
ZDW07 comes with only one absolute base: the castle. YOU WILL NEVER mount a great range defensive and offensive if this area is not absolutely locked down. One can argue that the base where the snow is at is superior, but you won't get the amount of landmarks and range placement the castle provides. All classes can maximize their effectiveness with a superb coordination between range units and close quarter if the proper landmarks are in their possession (the caslte being the supreme one, next to it is the caves, and then the snow castle). It is imperative that ALL LAND MARKS AND HIGH GROUNDS MUST BE CAPTURED if you wish to sustain a suitable defensive where you feel secure. You will not win the war on foot without capturing these locations.
ZDW08 is a strange map for me. I don't know whether to capture the highest point possible or go for the lowest locations. This map is incredibly large and offers little effective landmarks because of how wide open most locations are.
The most intense fights are normally over the land marks on each corner of the map and are used as bases as time progresses. The roof top with the darker textures should be sought after by everyone since it keeps the player extremely secure from adversary players from below (Virus especially can benefit from capturing this location). This map is probably only good for large 4 player wars.
ZDW09 is probably the least strategic map throughout ZDW. You only have 2 real landmarks to capture (the two high ground structures) and aren't any good unless the range units are supported and the unit in question is moderately good at range. Virus players get slapped around extremely easy no matter how hard they try, and Chex or Hexan would dominate.
ZDW10 is probably the most strategic map throughout ZDW contrary to the previous map. You have an assortment of landmarks to take over that are extremely vital in your ability to advance throughout the game. The weaker players that do not recognize how important certain locations are will soon perish under the weight of everyone else jockeying for position.
The base with the most tactical advantage is the northern one. It is the most far removed from enemy advancement (the water slows down players), has the height advantage (since it is on a hill), has a reliable wall where you can place range units to stave off players from advancing, has 5 landmarks you NEED to fortify so you can slow down players from even nearing you, and offers plenty of cover with only having 1 way of getting in: the direct way. This base alone gives Heretic, Hexan, Strife, or even Chex the perfect defensive advantage. The player that captures this base is the winner if they are able to seize the middle landmark after having the base completely safe. This is the second most vital location to secured players so that from here, they have reign of control to mount any sort of offense at their leisure.
With the base at the north as your solid defense and support from afar to help you capture the next landmark, enemy players from the west can not effectively flank you, but this middle landmark gives you the perfect and ideal location to sustain another strong defensive with the help of your base. The base located at the east is, to me, a grave. Though there are some decent landmarks here, the wide terrain is will offer pain to whom ever can sustain the aforementioned middle landmark.
The base at the south will probably be the second best bet after the middle is secured completely. One can argue that capturing the west or east base should be next, but so long as your land mark is covered from your south and north flank, then any offensive attempt the enemy makes is moot. Yes, you will sustain a loss but it will be a loss you can laugh at. You can then have the freedom to save up on many to solidify these landmarks with hero units.
The west and east base will succumb to you eventually from here on. Even in larger games, you can sustain dominance provided that these steps are followed (and the players themselves are oblivious) and even with failure of taking the middle landmark from the north, you still have a strong range base you can run to and attempt again later.
I'll return to this thread later for the other maps. Any objects to what I have said, feel free to critique me.
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Post by Mik57 on Aug 21, 2010 18:25:55 GMT
A fine post, mobius.
As for ZDW2, here's my opinion:
Its all about the dirt hill in the southern-middle part of the map. Controlling that is paramount to victory. Taking a base is fine too, but make that a secondary objective to the big dirt hill.
When you control the hill, place as many hitscans and hard-hitting range units as you can up there. Make sure to completely occupy it, that way no one else has room to spawn any melee units up there. Once you've done that, just look out for flem mines. When you control this platform, and have it fly occupied, the rest of the map is LOCKED DOWN, especially if you have a plethora of hitscanners. If any players are out in the open, they will be pulverized. They may attempt to spam units of their own to take down your units, but they will usually fail While the other players are busy trying to destroy your hill emplacement, take the time to mount a good offensive on the player with the least amount of defense (Most likely the one attacking you). Once you control their base, they have literally nowhere to go, and will probably die within the minute.
Now, you have the hill and a base. Reinforce the hill, and try to occupy the other side dirt areas. If any player decides to stop turtling, and to attempt an offensive, take over their base. The same will happen to them. Now you have 2 bases, and every side area of the map. THe last death will most likely be because of the massive amount of crossfire that's going on now. Make sure you're not the one that dies. (Its a pretty humiliating defeat, to be completely dominating the map, then get killed by one of your own monsters.)
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Post by Damage on Aug 22, 2010 15:03:45 GMT
That sounds like ZDW2 not ZDW3. There's no dirt hills in Da Void as far as I know.
My personal opinion on Da Void is control over the hallways. Pretty much every room in the map is connected to a set of hallways and the center. The first priority should be to capture the platforms in the center and when that area is locked down other plays will have a hard time moving throughout the map, and may just stick to staying in a room until someone enters.
After you have the center you should mainly just branch out to the various hallways connected to a room holding another player's army. If you take control of the hallways that connect to the room and the center, all you have to do is send your army pouring into his base, because he won't be able to simply walk out with all the exits blocked. It would only be a matter of time before your opponent is overwhelmed. The hard part that players should make sure they have locked down is keeping the hallways reinforced, the second the cornered player breaks your defenses and gets away, the easier it will be for that player to begin reB****ing their army and flank you from behind. Of course if you have the center under control they can get only so far.
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Post by Mik57 on Aug 25, 2010 18:52:31 GMT
That sounds like ZDW2 not ZDW3. There's no dirt hills in Da Void as far as I know. Fuck, whoops. And to think I put that map pack together :/. |
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Post by Damage on Aug 27, 2010 5:01:22 GMT
Aw c'mon guys. As you can see responding to this thread isn't rocket science! You can't complain about the quality of any maps and not respond here. You don't have that right. (E.g. if you don't vote you can't complain about who got elected)
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Post by evilspacetomato on Aug 27, 2010 8:55:38 GMT
I would like it if the map names could be shortened so that DB2 would display the full names.
It would also be nice if ZDWARS1 was refereed to ZDWARS01 like MAP01.
In flame temple when cyberdemon is triggered it gets quite tempting to sit in your base and wait for the other guy to fight it, it would be good if the monsters are not killed in a reasonable time they turn back into statues.
In Pacific warfare some of the islands can be blocked by peoples static units and used for camping.
Flem base in Greater Crucible is very camping friendly.
The way through the flem-bars at the entrance looks no different from the rest of the flem bars.
I miss the old 3 base Lesser Crucible.
In Dead Haze it would be good to be able to toggle the music back to the maps normal music.
In Battlefield 94 the wood base is the only good defensive position, another one would be good.
For Blazing Colosseum it would be cool if the towers would sink into the ground and pop up in the other corners every 10 mins just to limit tower camping.
Tech Monolith the water pipe upward and that area is too cramped, it should either be no spawn in the walkable area or made bigger.
The bouncy pad entrance should be moved so that it is not on the same side as the normal entrance.
The bouncy pad should be given a ladder to virus can use the alternate entrance.
The top base should be made less camp-able.
The whole level should be made less tall.
Doom City Outskirts it would be nice if the level could be made a bit smaller.
Caverns get rid of those new walls
Allow the players to get out of the lava pits easier.
Allow bosses to travel down the ramps in the bases.
Da Void I like the black and white teleport passage, adding projectile blocking would make it so its easier to flush out campers.
Add more teleport passages, mabye teleport floor/ceiling passages.
Anything that can make the level seem like something out of MC Escher
Despair Canyon bring back a second way out of the brown base, twice I have seen people get trapped in there by flembranes
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WhoDaMan
Meatshield
The Penitent One
I Da Man Yo!!
Posts: 76
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Post by WhoDaMan on Sept 5, 2010 1:30:07 GMT
In the interest of keeping this thread alive I would like to talk about Map 23: Continuum of Discord. When map pack 3 first came out I originally hated this map. There aren't really any towers or forts so in my mind I kind of passed it off as boring and uneventful. After playing a few matches on it however I decided it wasn't as bad as I originally thought. I eventually started liking the idea of using small rooms and narrow corridors as choke points instead of Tall Towers and massive outdoor forts. It was a refreshing change from most maps. I still think it could be better if certain window ceils were made a little wider to more easily accommodate monsters. There are also some cages that look like you can spawn monsters in there, but sadly you can't. It would be cool if they were made so that monsters could be put in them. What do you guys think?
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Post by Sauerkraut on Sept 6, 2010 20:32:50 GMT
WhoDaMan: it's becouse zdwars23 it was originally designed for GvH....
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Post by Damage on Sept 6, 2010 21:34:41 GMT
For everyone's information, this thread is pretty much obsolete. I would have said something earlier, but I had to keep ZDW2 a secret for some time so...
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Post by Captain Ventris on Sept 7, 2010 12:58:18 GMT
That ain't how closed development works, broski.
Also, Damage has some weird habit of trying as hard as he can to leak information without actually saying anything, and I'll likely continue to do this for the entire development period, because he's a wiener.
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Post by Damage on Sept 7, 2010 14:26:34 GMT
It's not that I'm gonna "leak" information. But I felt bad for some who would continue to make maps in vain.  I'd blame it on my poorly worded posts. |
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Post by Sauerkraut on Sept 7, 2010 15:13:05 GMT
I'd blame it on Ventris and his secret-keeping policy.
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WhoDaMan
Meatshield
The Penitent One
I Da Man Yo!!
Posts: 76
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Post by WhoDaMan on Sept 7, 2010 20:10:55 GMT
Ventris... I hope ZDwars 2 comes with a fresh batch of chocolate chip cookies for keeping us all in the dark about this.
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Post by Minus- on Sept 8, 2010 3:46:47 GMT
im definitely with who on that on man, how do you think we feel? |
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